Canon S90 vs Ricoh GR Digital III: Lens Performance

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Posted by Amin

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Given the fact that zoom lenses are not as good as fixed focal length lenses.
Given the fact that the s90 has a zoom lens and the Ricoh a fixed focal length lens.
Given the fact this this involved pixel peeping... enlarging small sections... and that this is not what we would see even in a 11 x 14 print.
Given the fact that the Ricoh costs $300 more than the Canon S90...
The Canon S90 is apparently the camera of choice IMHO by far...
1 reply · active 803 weeks ago
Prognathous's avatar

Prognathous · 803 weeks ago

Unless there's a specific GRD3 feature (user interface, hot-shoe, OVF option etc...) that you need, I fully agree. The S90 is a more sensible choice, and so are the GX200 and LX3.

Prog.
It's interesting that different people can look at the same facts and come away with different conclusions. For me, the Ricoh is a better choice because it makes sharper pictures and because you can attach an optical viewfinder.

Both cameras are said to have good controls. But, given a choice, I'd take the Ricoh control over Canon.

A person really needs to think about how he will be using a camera before deciding which one is "best". I can see how a stabilized zoom lens could be of interest to some people and other people would prefer a good viewfinder.
Min, I appreciate your work, but I agree with Terri, this comparison is not quite relevant.

Canon S90 IS should be compared with Panasonic LX3 or GX200 / the new GRX module, because it is a compact camera with zoom lens.
2 replies · active less than 1 minute ago
I understand where you and Terri are coming from, but for others this is a relevant comparison. I know this, because I've had quite a few requests for this test. Some folks want to know how much performance they are giving up in order to have a zoom.
I disagree, this was very relevant for me as I had a hard time choosing between these two cameras.
Can't imagine giving up the Optical IS of the S90
I´ve owned several canon compacts and grd3 is my first ricoh compact , said this , I wouldn´t go back to canon , the handling ,image quality , operation , portability and expandability ( 21mm , viewfinder , frequent firmware updates ...) of the grd makes a quite unique camera .
Very happy with it !
The two cameras can very well be compared against each other, on the basis that they are both the smallest prosumer cameras out there.

The Ricoh clearly won this one, but of course this doesnt go anywhere near to make a full comparison of the two cameras.
What is really missing are comparisons done at higher ISO conditions.

Btw. GX200 is much more similar to the S90, both in price and specifications, but the GRD3 is still the more interesting camera. I will gladly give up the zoom to get sharper pictures. It is the lack of OIS that is the real handicap on the GRD3.
The Canon may yet win under high ISO conditions, part because the sensor is better than the Ricoh's (alledgedly), and part because of its OIS.
1 reply · active 802 weeks ago
"The Ricoh clearly won this one, but of course this doesnt go anywhere near to make a full comparison of the two cameras.
What is really missing are comparisons done at higher ISO conditions."

Stay tuned :-).
True, it is a skewed test -- zoom to fixed? Aside from some $1500 zoom lenses (not including the price of the camera), what zoom setup, especially in a compact cam, would offer sharper images? None.

Although some S90s might have decentering issues, it does not seem to be a problem with the majority of them, so I'd prefer to see a test of a properly working S90 versus a GX200 and LX3 (which will undoubtedly be replaced early in the new year).
3 replies · active 802 weeks ago
"Although some S90s might have decentering issues, it does not seem to be a problem with the majority of them"

Are you sure about that?

DC Watch being a hugely popular site, I assume that Canon cherry picked a nice S90 for them. Here is DC Watch's S90 sample (note decentering with blurry right lower corner, also seen in their other samples):
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/dcw/docs/326/57...

Here's the thread on DPR with several people discussing their decentered S90 cameras and no one mentioning that their S90 lens is perfectly centered. Even the one individual in the thread who exchanged his S90 got another decentered S90 for it:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=...

PhotographyBlog's S90 sample (note the blurry left side, even at f/5.6 (also seen in their other samples):
http://img.photographyblog.com/reviews/canon_powe...

A little bit of decentering is more common than not, in my experience. The amount seen with my S90 is within my range of expectation. I don't consider this camera to be defective.
"DC Watch being a hugely popular site, I assume that Canon cherry picked a nice S90 for them."

You would be wrong to make that assumption. Cherrypicking has never been found to have occurred, and no one formerly employed by any camera company has EVER claimed it's been done either (and they'd have no reason not to tell the truth). The late Herbert Keppler used to regularly disabuse this idea in his columns too. By the way, what often happens with loaner gear is that it gets knocked around and requires adjustment when returned to the company (like a rental car), so when loaners go from one reviewer to the next (as often happens) you will invariably occasionally find some units operating anywhere from less-than-perfectly to problematically.

I cannot recall seeing results from loaner-reviewed cameras sent to reputable reviewers that were found to be substantially better than the cameras when widely available to the public. Which model cameras/lenses are you thinking of that have definitively been cherrypicked and reviewed far better than the marketed gear?

"I don't consider this camera to be defective."

I'd send it back under warranty, and I'd expect it to be fixed or replaced, and I'm sure if it was found on a (50% more costly) GX200 the typical Ricoh owner would do so too, in a flash.
I'm not convinced one way or another regarding the cherry picking issue, but that is besides the point. Looking at various full res image samples on the web, I have an easier time finding S90 samples taken at 6mm with decentering evident than finding S90 samples taken at 6mm with centering evident.

"I'm sure if it was found on a (50% more costly) GX200 the typical Ricoh owner would do so too, in a flash."

I strongly doubt that the typical Ricoh owner (or typical any brand owner) would notice this small amount of decentering. It is super common in my experience with all brands, Ricoh included. I generally don't even notice it until I start putting together crops for this web site, and I make larger prints than the "typical owner". Looking through my own hard drive, I'm hard pressed to find a keeper which would be any less of a keeper because of blurring in the extreme right corners.

Either way, I bought a second S90 today after reading these comments and will see whether that one behaves any differently.
Mark Phillips's avatar

Mark Phillips · 802 weeks ago

I'm not clear re the supposed O.I.S. advantage of the S90. I haven't made my own decision as yet and as an older guy with a slight hand tremor at times I like image stabilization. But with a fast wide angle lens does it really matter? I shoot with the Panasonic GF1 with the 20mm f1.7 lens with no problem because the lens speed allows me to compensate easily for any slight movement. Maybe it does help with the S90 at the upper range of the zoom but that seems to me to be part of the paradox in comparing the two cameras. Maybe the S90 needs the OIS and the GRD III doesn't. I think Ricoh does include sensor shift image stabilization with the GX200 and with their new GXR/S10 module where they perceive it might be needed.
Stopped wanting an S90 now - thanks for saving me the bucks!
Mark Phillips's avatar

Mark Phillips · 802 weeks ago

One additional piece of info. I spent time with the S90 today, for the second time, as I was considering it vs. the GRD III or the new Ricoh GXR/S10. If you are considering the camera make sure you handle it for awhile before deciding. I have large hands and I couldn't find a way I'd be comfortable holding the camera. The difference from the GRD III in length is only .4 inches but that amount plus the little grip on the Ricoh makes it very comfortable for me (actually I haven't held it but I did handle the GRD II which was actually fractionally shorter). Apart from the somewhat slippery feeling finish it just would not work for me.
1 reply · active 802 weeks ago
Spevas Papanocerous's avatar

Spevas Papanocerous · 802 weeks ago

I have big hands, too, and found the S90 difficult to handle. I wonder if an aftermarket grip would help. Anyone tried one of these? http://kleptography.com/rf/#camera_s90
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What i can say is your GRD's lens would be affected by a little decentering ,
my first GRD 3 has these problem, no matter how i stop down the aperture , from f/1.9 to f/5.6 the left corner never get sharp.
but after i return it to the shop and get 2nd one ,it's lens perfect centering.
Gareth Jones's avatar

Gareth Jones · 802 weeks ago

On the cherry picking debate. It's interesting to note the suggestions that review samples may be adjusted before they go out to reviewers. That is nothing more or less than cherry picking. Mass produced items are not generally adjusted before they reach the consumer, they come off the production line and go straight into a box that they don't leave until they are in the hands of the consumer. All review sample should be taken straight from a retail store's shelves if they are to be considered truly representative of the breed.

Years ago I recall a scandal that kicked off with a certain motorcycle manufacturer and it's review samples. There were often rumours that review samples were not just cherry picked, but blueprinted. Blueprinting amounts to ensure that every component is at the optimum end of it's production tolerances and that all components are the best fit with other components. IOW the review samples were not an example of what came of the production line, but were hand built. Then all hell broke loose when it was found that one manufacturer had not just been blueprinting their engines for review. They were, if we're being diplomatic, hand finishing major components. Or to put it another way they were shipping their review samples with performance tuned engines.

Now I'm not suggesting that any camera manufacturer would go quite that far, but it would be naive in the extreme to suggest that any manufacturer did not do some extra QA on review samples. For that reason I always pay much more attention to those websites and publications that purchase their review samples off the shelf. I want to know what I would be likely to get were I to buy one, not what a factory technician can turn out given time in the workshop.

@Amin

You don't consider a camera with obvious image defects to be defective. Sir, you are far too tolerant. When you spend this sort of money you should not accept such noticeable defects, manufacturer's claims that the camera is within tolerance notwithstanding. However I would also consider severe barrel distortion to be a defect unless it was clearly indicated in the sales material. After all none of the sample images I've seen from Canon display a hint of distortion. Funny that.

@Hitomi

Here in the UK the GX200 is generally somewhat cheaper than the S90.

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