Having pre-ordered the DP1, I'm working towards doing a shootout along the lines of the GX100 vs G7 vs D-LUX 2 Shootout. The issue is that there really isn't another camera like the DP1. The GRD II is probably the closest match from the standpoint of a photography tool, but others will likely do that comparison. Professional photographer and reviewer Sean Reid will no doubt do a thorough job of comparing the two when he does his DP1 review. Pavel Kudrys of Ricoh Forum has posted a number of excellent GRD II tests and has stated his intent to try to obtain a DP1 for comparison. Nevertheless, I'd be willing to add my comparisons to the mix. Alternatively, I could do a comparison of the Canon 5D and EF 28mm f/2.8 lens to the DP1, but that is unsatisfying for three reasons. First, the 5D is massive compared with the DP1, so they obviously serve different functions. Second, the 5D is a good deal more expensive; and third, the SD14 (which has the same sensor as the DP1) has already been compared with the 5D. The Canon G9 is a reasonable camera for comparison since it offers excellent image quality, RAW, and is only moderately larger than the DP1. It seems to be the compact carry of choice for a number of folks who are serious about photography. The main downside is that the G9 lens doesn't go wider than 35mm (equivalent). The upcoming Canon Rebel XSi/450D is an attractive candidate for the shootout since it is priced close to the DP1 and has a kit lens that goes to 28mm (equivalent). I'd be interested in seeing the DP1 compete against a 12MP, recently-announced entry-level DSLR. I'd choose the Canon over the Nikon equivalent simply because I already have a couple Canon lenses I could use with it. The downside, again, is that an XSi isn't compact. It also won't be available for testing until mid-April at the earliest. The Leica D-LUX 3 and its equivalent, the Panasonic LX2, are also under consideration. These are excellent cameras which offer wide angle, RAW, and, like the G9 are frequently the compact choice for serious photographers. The GX100 also deserves consideration but is off the list since the best comparison from Ricoh is almost certainly the GRD II. The Olympus E-410 with 14-42mm kit lens, as the most compact DSLR available, is another comparison some may find of great interest. The Olympus Stylus Epic is an old 35mm film compact with a 35mm f/2.8 fixed focal length lens. It would make for an interesting comparison, but somehow I doubt that many folks will have trouble deciding between this one and the DP1.
Perhaps you have a better suggestion, or maybe you think that a shootout would be pointless since the DP1 represents a new class of camera. Kindly let me know by responding to the poll featured to the right as well as by leaving your comments below. The poll restricts each individual to a single selection. The reason for this is that I have neither the time to test nor the money to buy all those cameras! I'm simply considering buying and/or borrowing one or two (max) for the purposes of a shootout and would like to get a sense of where the general interest lies. Thanks!
Your Input Needed for Sigma DP1 Shootout
Monday, February 18, 2008
Posted by Amin
Labels:
DP1,
review,
shootout,
Sigma
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Hi Amin.
I think DP1 is a unique camera , at the moment.
The Canon 5D is a different beast , with different price and different purpouse.
Maybe a Leica M8 could be a more comparable camera due to his attitude for a specific kind of photography (street , etc)
But prices are in two different league...so I think it would be a non-sense shootout.
So maybe the most comparable thing is an APS-C DSLR
The GRD2 is similar...but we'll see very soon too many test between these 2 cameras, so I think it would be better to focus on something different (or, at least, a 3-cameras shootout)
Hope to see your work as soon as possible!
Ciao!
Federico.
Hello Amin, Kit here.
I really can't see that there's any real point to comparing an APS-C format DSLR to the DP-1. Two main reasons:
The form factors are totally different; buyers of the DP-1 will be prepared to lose (for example) the flexibility of a zoom for the minuscule size. Carry-ability is what this new camera is all about, after all. So the DP-1 can only suffer in comparison (fixed lens, slower max, aperture, non-interchangeable lenses, and so on). The size factor, the reason for purchase for most, can't be meaningfully compared to the DSLR.
And even though the DP-1 has that great sensor (I had a Sigma SD-14 for a while), that same sensor will also suffer in comparison with the APS-C Canon sensor, which have excellent high ISO attributes.
It's really a comparing like with non-like, as far sa I can see. I would like to pre-order a DP-1, but Amazon will not ship that camera to Australia. No idea why.
Hello Amin, Kit here.
I really can't see that there's any real point to comparing an APS-C format DSLR to the DP-1. Two main reasons:
The form factors are totally different; buyers of the DP-1 will be prepared to lose (for example) the flexibility of a zoom for the minuscule size. Carry-ability is what this new camera is all about, after all. So the DP-1 can only suffer in comparison (fixed lens, slower max, aperture, non-interchangeable lenses, and so on). The size factor, the reason for purchase for most, can't be meaningfully compared to the DSLR.
And even though the DP-1 has that great sensor (I had a Sigma SD-14 for a while), that same sensor will also suffer in comparison with the APS-C Canon sensor, which have excellent high ISO attributes.
It's really a comparing like with non-like, as far as I can see. I would like to pre-order a DP-1, but Amazon will not ship that camera to Australia. No idea why.
Hi Kit and Federico, I think you both make good points. In the end, there is no directly comparable camera for the DP1. Kit, although the DP1 will suffer at high ISO compared to an APS-C Canon DSLR, I'm thinking it may compete well at lower ISOs. Federico, the M8 is beyond my $$ reach =). The way things are looking, I'll probably do another 3-camera shootout. Considering 5D vs DP-1 vs GRD II or XSi vs DP-1 vs G9... Something along those lines. Kit, sorry to hear about Amazon's issue with the DP1 pre-order in Australia. That's pretty bizarre!
Personally, I'm only interested in the comparison with the GX100. Once downsized to 4.7MP, I expect the Ricoh to win this shootout, for the following reasons:
1. Low ISO results are highly detailed. See the 4.7MP pictures posted in comment 27 here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1013&message=25837351
2. High ISO doesn't suffer from green splotches under typical artificial light (e.g. tungsten and halogen light sources).
3. f/2.5 + IS provides about 2~3 stops better low light capability than f/4.0 without IS. In practice, this would mean that the ISO 800 on the DP1 should be compared with ISO 100/200 on the GX100. Is there any chance the Foveon sensor could close this gap? I highly doubt it.
4. Anything narrower than 28mm requires cropping on the DP1, but not on the GX100 thanks to its optical zoom that goes all the way to 72mm (equiv). This means that to get flattering perspective, DP1 portrait shots will need to be taken from a few steps back, leaving a lot of unused space around the subject. Once cropped to emulate 72mm, the results would look very poor, even compared to the so-so tele end of the GX100.
In short, the DP1 is a novelty, and Sigma should be given a lot of credit for the guts needed to go this route, but I’d be very surprised to see this camera put up a real fight to the GX100 when it comes to low-light shots under artificial light or in anything that requires cropping. 28mm tripod-mounted shots at low-ISO and bright daylight would be a closer match (with the Sigma possibly winning), but for that kind of work you might as well use a DSLR.
Prog.
Forget the "comment 27" bit. The link to the dpreview.com discussion is sufficient.
Prog.
Hi Amin,
An Interesting proposition.
Although I agree that people purchasing the DP1 are interested primarily in its size, comparing its image quality with an APS-C DSLR will help to validate Sigma's claim of "DSLR image quality" in a compact. As such, any APS-C DSLR will do. It'll also be an interesting comparison of Foveon and Bayer technologies.
I also feel that Ricoh's GRDII is NOT the best compact to compare the DP1's image quality with. To me, the DP1 is about trading a zoom lens (as well as some lens speed) for better image quality. The GX100 is approximately the same size as the DP1, but has a faster lens and a much more versatile 24-72mm zoom.
I feel that the introduction of the DP1 has made the GRDII a somewhat less compelling camera. If I'm going to be sacrificing a zoom lens, why not have the superior image quality of the DP1? The GX100's full-size, optically zoomed in shots, on the other hand, will probably be superior to a small crop from the centre of the DP1's file.
Kind Regards,
Björn
This promises to be a very interesting comparison, regardless of the candidates chosen, simply because of the curiosity and excitement aobut the DP1 and accompanying lens!
I think either GRD or GX100 would be good comparison for different reasons.
A 4/3rds comparison would be interesting too because of the sensor-size proximity.
Thanks all for your comments and suggestions! Prog, I appreciate the link and your thoughts. I agree with you and Björn that the cropped DP1 file is very unlikely to match the GX100 at the 72mm (equivalent) field of view. I also doubt that even at 28mm (equivalent) a DP1 file is likely to have significantly more detail when both are printed at the same size. However, I'm guessing (based on the SD14 samples) that for handheld low ISO 28mm (equivalent) images in good outdoor light, the DP1 will be in a class of its own. Not in terms of detail captured, as a GX100/GRD/G9 image at low ISO downsized to 4.7MP is packed with detail, but in overall image quality (detail, color, distribution of tones, etc). Björn, I think you make a very good point that the most relevant comparison is probably between this and a compact camera with a zoom lens. I'm guessing that taking into account all prospective buyers, the most common competitor for the DP1 will be the G9. However, it's hard to ignore the fact that the GRD II is leading my poll by such a great margin. 1001, thanks again. I agree that Four Thirds makes good sense. I'm going to start out with three cameras including the DP1. For sure there will be one other compact camera and one DSLR.
Hi Amin.
This is an interesting discussion as it deals with the decision making process we are faced with when deciding on a new camera. In that regard it would be most useful to compare the DP1 to a camera that could be a viable alternative. But which other cameras are on the list of possible candidates with the DP1 would depend on your photographic needs.
If you need a reasonably wide lens for street scenes, architecture or landscape photography, then the G9 will hardly be an alternative to the DP1. If, on the other hand, you don’t like wide lenses, perhaps because you feel it is an unnatural point of view or because of distortion, then the DP1 certainly won’t be on your list either.
A GX100 or LX2 might be an alternative to those who require a wide angle, but are willing to compromise on image quality for the sake of having a versatile zoom range. The more photos you can see yourself taking at a wide angle, the better a choice the DP1 becomes.
Then there’s the GRDII. It has a small sensor but without the advantage of a zoom lens. Its advantage might lie in the enormous depth of field that a small sensor provides. The hyperfocal distance of a GRDII at f/2.8 is approximately 2m, whereas you would have to set the DP1 to f/8 to get the roughly the same depth of field. That would mean everything is acceptably sharp from around 1m to infinity. But f/8 lets in a lot less light and assuming you can’t use a slower shutter speed, you’d have to increase the ISO by 3 stops on the DP1. In this specific situation you’d be comparing the GRDII’s ISO100 with the DP1’s ISO800.
…and by the time you’ve finally decided which camera or cameras to compare the DP1 to and gotten your hands on these cameras, Panasonic will announce an LX3 :-)
Björn
Björn, you're exactly right. Planning this shootout has really put me in the mindset of the buying process. In fact, it *is* the buying process for me since I will likely end up keeping the "winner" (meaning the one best suited to my personal needs) and selling the "loser" after the shootout =). One of the things that makes the GRD II a great competitor is it's very low barrel distortion at wide angle. By comparison, the GX100 doesn't seem to get it sorted until about 35mm (equivalent) and the G9 not until 50mm (equivalent). I know this can all be addressed in post processing, but it really bugs me anyway. I think the effective speed comparisons you and Prog have pointed out between the DP1 and Ricohs have been on target, and this is something I plan to explore in the shootout. I would love it if Panasonic were to release an LX3 prior to the shootout. Really looking forward to seeing what Panasonic does with that line.
Hi Amin,
Of your listed choices, the GR DII is the obvious one, and certainly has the most design and feature overlap with the DP1 of any other camera.
I'm interested in a shootout with the M8 as well. They're more similar than a lot of folks might think.
Cheers,
Rick
Rick, I wish I could afford to buy the M8 and take the loss on resale!