Future of compacts

Article about the future shake-out of the camera market. Pentax and Olympus are endangered species.
"Of course currently the great white hope is the big-sensor compact market, including the Micro Four Thirds platform. The event of speedy on-sensor autofocus and new high-rez screens and electronic viewfinders may give us compact cameras with professional capabilities. And this may make DSLR cameras much less relevant to many photographers. Especially serious enthusiasts, because for them a small-sensor camera might not be good enough, but they still care about bulk and weight. And who knows what amazing cameras we may see in this area in the future."
And later in the article:
...actually, thinking about it, I think the Micro Four Thirds idea may be flawed. When I want a serious and flexible camera, my Nikon D90 is compact enough. And when I want a much smaller camera, I really don't care if it has exchangeable lenses. If I want something really portable, I'm not likely to bulk it up with extra lenses. So I think a fixed-lens (zoom or not) big-sensor compact is a better idea.

Posted by Eolake Stobblehouse

Comments (42)

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Calling this an article puts far more credence in theopinions expressed than it deserves. Its a blog post responding to another blog post...
I agree totally with this article (or opinion: who cares about the name of it). We would then come back to a principle discovered by Leica in ... 1925: the importance of a very good camera in a very small volume (for that time).
"If I want something really portable, I'm not likely to bulk it up with extra lenses. So I think a fixed-lens (zoom or not) big-sensor compact is a better idea."
I was thinking about the Oly M43 just the other day and kind of came to the same conclusion. I think I'd rather have a G10-ish body, maybe a hair smaller/thinner with a larger sensor.
There isn't even a production m43 model out that really demonstrates how small they can be. I don't think the G1 counts. If Olympus comes out with a camera the size of the prototype then I would much prefer it to something like the Canon G10. Let's face it, even using RAW the its high ISO output really isn't very good. Same goes for the LX-3. And I think the benefit of having interchangeable lenses is missed. If i'm going to be using it as a pocket camera I will most likely not carry around extra lenses. I'll choose a lens that will best fit the situation I plan on being in. If you go fixed a la Sigma DP1 you don't have that option. And making it fixed lens zoom? Well we'll soon see if it's even possible, while keeping size in the G10 realm.
2 replies · active 856 weeks ago
Underneath's avatar

Underneath · 856 weeks ago

Bingo Andrew. The missed point here is the benefit of a solid M4/3 system of good wide aperture pancake primes. Each morning, choose a prime, throw it in your pocket, and greet the world. That and IS, and I'm happy. If 800 & 1600 look great, so much the better, but when I want to shoot in the dark, I use a flash. I'd rather have great small lenses, extremely good usability and high dynamic range first.

BTW, if Sigma is dying, they have a funny way of showing it. They just bought Foveon.
Wolfieps3737's avatar

Wolfieps3737 · 856 weeks ago

Thom's got a point - to some extent. But the Nikon & Canon people said the same thing when the OM-1 arrived and then watched in horror as the silly little SLR sold like hotcakes and forced the whole SLR camera market to downsize. Granted the market is not the same now as it was then - but the Olympus M4/3 camera I think answers exactly what Thom is saying M4/3 wont deliver - it is a compact body with a compact *interchangable* lens. What serious photographer would get a single lens camera with a time-delaying, vulnerable to damage lens that will need a bulky adapter tube to take any filters when at the same sze you'd have the faster start-up, structurally stronger changable lens with a proper filer thread and the option of different focal lengths? I don't know why Thom would prefer the fuddy-duddy pop-out lens camera ... not logical at all to me.
Somebody needs to make up their mind!
But then maybe it isn't the magical APS sensor size so it can't be "serious" like a C or N - people are always saying Olympus doesn't know what it's doing and somehow they just keep innovating and forcing the big-boys to follow their tune: how embarassing!
"I don't know why Thom would prefer the fuddy-duddy pop-out lens camera"

No, that was me, not Thom. (Though he hinted something similar.) The answer is size.

Of course if you can make the lens exchangeable without any significant price or size hit, then I'm all in!
2 replies · active 856 weeks ago
At last they might make a compact that I can buy without making to many compromises, but let's do some blue sky thinking:
I have just added to my collection of old film cameras a Pentax auto 110 SLR, for younger readers this was a SLR with intercahngble lens based on the Kodak 110 cartridge film (a smaller version of the instamatic cartridge) What's amazing is how small and light this camera is and how good the focusing screen is. So, as electronics are getting smaller and use less power why can't a 110 sized digital camera be made? it would make the G1 M4/3 look like tanks.
There is one problem though, if the camera is very small how do you fit in a large LCD screen, answer, you don't! I broke LCD screen on my Canon Sureshot and have been using it only with the optical viewfinder, sure I can't access the menus but in a way it's no different than a film camera now.
Dave, I think we have those cameras in compact digicams. Maybe a little bigger than that Pentax 110 (which I almost bought myself), but they are *flatter*, meaning you can pocket them, and the image quality is much better, even with small sensors.

As for exchangeable lenses on a really pocket-sized camera like that, I think that would only appeal to a small subset of buyers. It'd be very cool, and I'd probably buy one, but it'd be a bit of a curiosity.
Amin,
I think I used to get an auto-email when replies appeared to comments on this site, what happened to that?
1 reply · active 856 weeks ago
I'm pretty sure that an exchangeable-lens would be more bulky. With a fixed lens you can make it withdraw into the camera body when not in use.
1 reply · active 856 weeks ago
Underneath's avatar

Underneath · 856 weeks ago

Frankly, I find the 4/3 system to be the real "what's the point" system. Very little size advantage, lots of compromises. M4/3 is the logical progression of the serious compact. That Oly proto with a pancake is just like a DP2. Actually, I'd love an APS Foveon sensor in that thing. Focus on the lens ring instead of a thumbwheel or joystick is my dream in a true serious compact.

Pentax is a different story. I like the K series DSLRs, but other than that, the user-oriented innovation we've come to love from Pentax just isn't there. Great camera company, but this is such a tough climate.
Underneath's avatar

Underneath · 856 weeks ago

As far as bulk goes, pancake primes would be no bigger than a DP2. Zooms would add bulk, but could do at times where size isn't as important, or for people who want just one comprehensive system.
zhongxiang's avatar

zhongxiang · 856 weeks ago

I haven't read all comments but generally is about compact camera with big sensor, then how small can a zoom lens be on big sensor.. etc..
Why not having a smaller sensor but low pixels.. say 6MP??? then u might have small lens, compact with low noise (similar to having big sensor)... then call this a micro DLSR..
1 reply · active 856 weeks ago
Timothy Bates's avatar

Timothy Bates · 856 weeks ago

I just scanned this forum and didn't find anyone mentioning a really important point when it comes to the size of cameras. Cameras are getting smaller but our hands are not evolving fast enough to keep up. I've been a professional television cameraman for 25 years and there is no doubt that serious professional cameras of all sorts will always remain large enough for fine manual control. Are artists demanding that the paint brush industry miniaturize and include more hairs per square inch?
1 reply · active 855 weeks ago
Ted Johnson's avatar

Ted Johnson · 856 weeks ago

My last film camera (in the early '80's) was a Minolta CL with a 40mm Rokkor, and a 28 Leica I bought later. It was a great combo. Light, quiet, small (I put it in a tiny Tenba shoulder bag), and I could get wide and normal perspectives for less weight than an SLR with a normal lens. Interchangeable lenses are a big advantage for me, although I rarely use a lens beyond 100mm.

I have been waiting for a digital equivalent of that fine camera. Maybe the Pannie G1 or the future Olympus M43 is the answer. A small interchangeable camera has a place, as does a good fixed lens compact. RE: the latter, the Sigma DP2 is interesting. I'd certainly own both types of camera if they were available.
"actually, thinking about it, I think the Micro Four Thirds idea may be flawed. When I want a serious and flexible camera, my Nikon D90 is compact enough. And when I want a much smaller camera, I really don't care if it has exchangeable lenses. If I want something really portable, I'm not likely to bulk it up with extra lenses. So I think a fixed-lens (zoom or not) big-sensor compact is a better idea."

There's no reason why a m43 camera should function differently than a fixed lens big sensor compact. You could take a small 35mm equivalent lens (if such were available), put it on a m43 camera, and pretend that it's fixed. Perhaps at some point you might decide that you want to switch to a 50mm or 3x zoom fixed lens, big sensor compact for a day, a week, or a month. No problem - switch the lens and pretend it's fixed again. When you pay good money for a high quality lens, I don't see any reason to keep getting rid of the lens to upgrade the sensor. Sensor technology is evolving rapidly, but optics are not.
Jim in Denver's avatar

Jim in Denver · 855 weeks ago

Thom's idea that the D90 is small enough is somewhat humorous. Although true for some users, that size camera is way too big for most. My needs are for the same image quality as the D90 in a much smaller package. I travel for work and then walk the cities of the world, and my DSLR simply takes up too much room in my flight bag. But until there is a 'SeriousCompact' , I will carry it.

The Canon G10 is about the right size physically. The controls are nice. The viewfinder is miserable, but that's to be expected. (Also, in a couple of years I surmise that EVF technology will be more than acceptable by most serious users.)

But no mater how good it may be, it's still a 1/1.7" sensor. (7.6mm W by 5.7mm H, giving an area of 43mm2) M4/3 is a significantly bigger sensor, being (obviously) a 4/3" (18mm W by 13.5mm H, giving an area of 243mm2, or about 5.5 times bigger than the G10) Although when compared to APS and FF sensors, the 4/3" is somewhat noisy, it is still whole orders of magnitude better than any compact.

M4/3 gives the first real chance at a camera system with the following:

Point-and-shoot camera size
--Isn't this the whole point?
A sensor big enough for real resolution and low noise properties
--Yes, APS or FF would be great, and might happen in the future. But 4/3" is more than enough to keep me happy!
Interchangeable PRIME lenses.
--Think about this for a second. There will never be a mass-market compact with a prime lens. M4/3 will likely have many.
The ability to carry another lens.
--Something like the Olympus 40-150 kit lens) would be so very easy to bring along, just toss it into your other pocket!

It should also be noted that Thom's forecast of the demise of some manufacturers is heavily biased on his viewpoint. Which are almost all biased to the DSLR. He seems to forget that the DSLR market is something like 7% of the total. So perhaps said manufacturers may be forced out of the DSLR business, they will most likely produce compacts for the foreseeable future.
Underneath's avatar

Underneath · 855 weeks ago

Expecting an M4/3 to rival a DSLR is also not the point. It doesnt need to be better, it just needs to be of appropriate quality for it's sensor size. Make this thing an acceptable back-up and a desirable, serious pocket shooter for pros and enthusiasts and this thing will fly from the shelves because there is no competition. Man I'm excited about this concept, and I hope the economy doesn't derail it.
This is a fascinating discussion with many well-considered viewpoints, but what it says to me is that I should keep my money in my wallet and wait a while before I buy a serious compact camera, because evidently there still is no such thing on the market. I have been excited to get a new high-quality digital compact to put in my pocket, however, the compromises - from any manufacturer - remain too great. For a year now I have read many dozens of reviews and opinions of every flavor of small digital camera on offer, but they continue to come up short. The pocketable digital I use now provides 'snapshot' quality, and that imposes a certain mindset toward the images, which is limiting. I’d prefer to break away from that constraint, but I question if is it possible with the available crop of compact cameras.

If a person is going to produce quality images (and I don’t just mean on a technical level, but on a conceptual and aesthetic one, as well) then the camera has to be up to the job and not get in the way. Of course it is possible to make wonderful photos with a cardboard shoebox that has a pinhole in one end of it, nevertheless, at this point I prefer computerized convenience, but not at the expense of compromising my intent.

Okay, I’m being a hard critic. You make your choices and do your thing and if a shoebox can work, so can the current cameras. It’s too bad, though, to have to accept something that’s “all right, but . . .”

My ideas require a really little camera now, but some of my most successful photographs were done (years ago) with a Deardorff 8”x10” camera that occupied two large and heavy suitcases with all of its components, not including a very robust tripod. I hauled that gear on several 200+ mile canoe trips through the Canadian wilderness and enjoyed every minute of it, however, times change and my objectives have, too. Heavy encumbrances don’t suit my needs now, and that includes any sort of bulky camera, including DSLR’s. You readers all know that I am part of a growing market, but the manufacturers have decisively not yet caught up with that market.

I applaud the energy and consideration that all your comments represent. Without enthusiastic websites like Serious Compacts (that camera manufacturers no doubt pay attention to), mass market camera offerings would certainly fall short. There will always be compromises, but right now we need a great leap forward.
2 replies · active 855 weeks ago
Hi all, I have a Minilux and I love the quality of images I get from it with E6 and B+W (ususlly T400CN). This is the quality I want from a digital compact as well. Hmmm.... which one??
A personal review of the current top end compacts:
G10: to big and expensive with a ridiculously small zoom control lever.
P6000: under specked GPS, battery has to be charged in the camera and poor optical viewfinder. Shame as it's almost what I want in a small camera.
LX3: Great lens but shame about the lens cap on a string and no optical viewfinder.

You can guess what I would like to see:
G10 viewfinder on a P6000 with the LX3 lens!
1 reply · active 855 weeks ago

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