Canon G10 - Panasonic LX3 High ISO Comparison

My Canon G10 arrived yesterday, and one of the first questions I set out to answer was how it would compare to the Leica D-LUX 4 (Panasonic LX3) at high ISO.  Panasonic, widely praised for stepping out of the megapixel race by keeping the LX3 at 10MP, claims that the benefits of large pixels include greater dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO.  Based on samples at The Imaging Resource and elsewhere, most seem to agree that the LX3 in-camera JPEGs outclass the G10 in-camera JPEGs at high ISO.  However, those who have seen the shootouts on this site know that I am mostly interested in comparing processed RAW files rather than in-camera JPEGs.

In the case of the G10 and LX3, comparisons of processed RAWs are limited by sparse third party support for the RAW files of these two cameras.  In this comparison, I've chosen to use Raw Photo Processor (RPP), which uses a modified version of dcraw.  RPP is good for this comparison in that it does not apply any sharpening besides that which is inherent in the demosaic process, nor does it apply any noise reduction when that option is disabled.  Thus, it's about as close to the RAW data as I can get while presenting a color image comparison for your evaluation.  The downside to RPP is that it does not technically support the D-LUX 4 yet, so the black level and colors needed adjustment.  Overall, I tried to approximate the black level, white level, and color between the two processed files.  The exposure for each photo was the same: f/4, 1/15s.  Both cameras were set ISO 800, a 28mm equivalent angle of view, and 4:3 aspect ratio.  The LX3 angle of view came out slightly wider.  A tripod was used with self timer and image stabilization disabled.  After processing the RAW files, the resulting G10 image was downsized using Photoshop Bicubic to match the LX3 file dimension for crop comparisons.

Pardon the choice of teddy bear test scene, but I was experimenting with a "1 Bear under the lamp" system for comparing dynamic range =).  Here is the overall scene, with the LX3 resized image on the left, and the G10 resized image on the right:



In each of the following 100% crop comparisons, the G10 crop on the right has been downsized to match the output size of the LX3 crop on the left. Differences in color and contrast are due to the RAW processor (and my use thereof) and are not indicative of significant characteristics of these two cameras.













I was surprised to find that there is little difference in either detail or noise between the LX3 and G10 at ISO 800 under these testing conditions. Both files respond very well to subsequent chroma noise removal in Noise Ninja. The RAW files are here in case anyone would like to process them differently:



This is just one preliminary example, but assuming that other examples show the same - that a downsized G10 RAW conversion can match an LX3 RAW conversion at high ISO - then it raises the question as to whether the LX3 is really a better low light camera. The following table shows the minimum f-stop (max relative aperture) at any given focal length and corresponding focal length equivalent for these two cameras:



As you can see, the LX3 has a roughly 2/3 stop speed advantage at any given focal length equivalent. The other thing to consider is which camera has the more effective image stabilization. In comparing the D-LUX 2 (LX1) and G7, I felt that the G7 had the more effective stabilization. The LX3 seems to me to have better stabilization than the LX1, but I don't have a sense yet for how it compares to the G10 in this respect.

Overall, I'd have to say that the LX3 is probably the low light champ, especially with regards to in-camera JPEGs, but the G10 is surprisingly good at high ISO.

Posted by Amin

Comments (32)

Loading... Logging you in...
  • Logged in as
Nice comparison, thanks for the work.
From the sensor analysis you posted, it's likely the two will rival each other in terms of SNR, if you add 0.25 to the G10 curve to account for the resolution advantage.
I guess even the lx3, with the 1/1.63 sensor and 11.3 megapixels on it, has already entered the territory where SNR is just poor at higher ISOs, and from there on, increase in pixel counts (G10) may not have substantial effect on SNR...maybe only when LX3 is equiped with a 4-5mp sensor, the difference in SNR compared with G10 can really shine.
improbable's avatar

improbable · 856 weeks ago

Thanks for posting these! They look pretty similar, I'd give a tiny edge to the Canon in these but small enough that it could be processing & downsampling.

It is my unscientific opinion that much of the complaining about noise on these new high-megapixel sensors comes from people forgetting to downsample... at 15mp or whatever I'm sure the Canon looked a lot worse, but here it looks fine. So all those pixels get you extra detail when there's enough light, and when there isn't, then you don't get that detail.

The lens is a fairly big difference though. I guess the real test is to shoot them both wide open and at 1/60th, letting the ASA setting fall where it may (and if one is a bit underexposed, because you can only set whole stops (can you?) boost it to the same brightness in post). There's probably quite a big step in noise going from 400 to 800 or from 800 to 1600.
improbable's avatar

improbable · 856 weeks ago

Would also be very curious to hear your opinion of their speed of operation, focusing under these conditions, shot to shot responsiveness, etc.
thanks for this interesting comparison! but how does it come that raw photo processor can already open G10 files? i tried it with dcraw but i only get some colored mess with visible demosaicing artefacts. the decoding part seems to work though.
2 replies · active 856 weeks ago
thanks for the test. I downloaded the LX3/D-LUX 4 RAW file and processed it with RAW Developer (MAC), which is based on DCRAW (to my knowledge). It looks to me, that your tiff files have some sharpenig. If you look at the pink foot (LX3), there are artefacts that look like sharpening artefacts. Running the raw file through RAW Developer, I did not find these artefacts at all.
I placed the screen shot here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/awebers/3023165818/
What is our opinion on that ?
1 reply · active 856 weeks ago
Thanks for the comparison, it's the first one I see that makes any sense. However to be honest I'm not really sure of the importance of ISO 800 tests, at this point you aren't looking for the best one but the one that sucks less.
Also the real low light test should take advantage of the different lens speed and IS. The point is not what is the best sensor, but what camera performs better overall.

Personally what makes me really curious is the latitude in real use, i.e. at low iso. That would make a real difference for me. Would be nice to test the GX200 too.
2 replies · active 856 weeks ago
Sort of echoing improbable, I would love to get your thoughts on something like focusing speed, which for me is a much more significant issue than high iso noise, which I figure is sort of a toss-up. Specifically, the way I would probably shoot with either of these cameras would be to keep them on manual focus mode, and then use the cameras' focus buttons to lock the focus in (I'm pretty sure the lx3 has a button like this next to the shutter button, and I think the g10 has a button on the back you could customize for this purpose). Does one focus better than the other?
New food for tought: according to the http://www.dxomark.com the indicated LX3 ISO is far off from reality (something like ISO800 is in reality ISO 458), while the G10 seem more accurate, and the error is on the opposite side which may change things quite a bit.
At this point It would be very interesting to verify the real aperture and shutter speed of cameras, they seem to cheat a little too much (the distortion affair has made me suspicious). Unfortunately I suppose it takes some sophisticated tool to measure those parameters, especially aperture.
3 replies · active 855 weeks ago
First, the G10 download is not the RAW (CR2) file it is a TIFF, would you mind fixing the link? I would love to download it.

Second, I am truly taken aback by the furore the LX3 vs G10 debate is causing not only on the www but even out there in the real world, if you can call New Zealand the real world and haven't surfeed this wave of conflicting views have decided the only way to move on is to make this post to your blog as it seemed like one of the more level headed.
If as you suggest all of these reviews are comparing onboard processed files they are testing way more than the sensor and lens, and excuse me but why would you pay the premium for a PnS that will give you the RAW file and then go and shoot JPG? That is like visiting a nice expensive restaurant which specialises in flavourful fresh food and asking them to cook your meal to perfection and then dehydate and rehydate it before serving it. Mmmmm...

I have been on the hunt for usable digital compact for several years now good enough to produce a publishable image for stock , candid portraiture and street photography at a reasonable size. I started looking at the first Ricoh's that emerged a couple of years back and remained unconvinced. However after some reading and a few shop visits I had decided on the G10 and 12 hrs after discussing the price etc I went into my local camera shop to buy one and discovered they had sold out . The salesman asked if i was interested in the LX3 and mentioned the DPreview review and comparison. Doubt crept into my mind, of course I thought he only has LX3s to sell now so what else would he say. Then today I bumped into my assistant and a friend of his at a cafe. The friend was wearing an M7 and had dragged a Mamiya 7 along for the ride. We were talking cameras, and as it happened this friend worked at the same pro shop so and I mentioned the G10 and he went down the same path; high ISO/noise, buy the LX3 etc. I looked at his gear and asked him how often he had tried to produce top quality images with those beauties on ISO 800 or above without already having realized that grain was going to be a feature of the resulting image, unless he was prepared to settle for a modest scale of reproduction. And surely this is the point. It is only the latest DSLRs that have enabled photographers to merrily shoot at 1600ASA and more than get away with it. In low light my current point and shoot , a D80 DSLR, is considerably better than the its bigger and more expensive but older cousin the D2XS which is inconceivably better than the much older Kodak P14N. However in the studio the roles are reversed and the P14N beats them all for sharpness and resolving power, but only with the right lens and a bit of nudging. All cameras have their limitations and to coax the best results out of them photographers have to get to know their strengths and weaknesses of their gear and how to best exploit these.
I am on the fence between the g10 and lx3.I have played with both in stores and like the feel of both.I do mostly handheld street scenes and people and artsy shots in odd light settings.Not really a vacation shooter or static flower-landscape scene guy.I also enjoy shooting b&w alot for contrast in pics.What camera would you reccomend? thank you
ps...i also dont like to use alot if any post processing.I havent invest money into programs for this so i would rather get a camera with decent out of camera results for what i do. I do have small program to sharpen and add fun effects and change contrast and colors depth but really want to just keep things "stock" from camera. thank you
Thanks Amin, for all the good work, and the clarifying posts you submitted! I had been doubting about the advantage of LX3 in low-light, but after all a faster lens remains a faster lens, as stated by the f-stop specs.

Post a new comment

Comments by

 
Copyright 2007 | Andreas08v2 by GeckoandFly and TemplatesForYou | Design by Andreas Viklund
TFY Burajiru